No one has the right to prevent the clarion from popularizing and perfecting itself over time

community
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Hi Anton,

I appreciate the shout-out for NetTalk, but perhaps it’s worth clarifying some details which you alluded to in your statement above.

a) The NetTalk upgrades definitely do bring in money, and that is very much their goal, because that’s what keeps the development time possible.

b) The average time between paid-for upgrades is around 18 months (although it’s now over 2 years since NT 12 was released.)

c) I would humbly suggest that there are many “clear reasons” to upgrading from one NetTalk version to the next. I keep a list here (NetTalk Version History) - and I’ll note that the past 2 years have delivered 48 builds (so far) of updates, new features and bug releases.

However it’s worth noting that the bulk of development happens “in cycle”. In other words I typically don’t aim to hold all the new stuff back for the “next big release” - rather updates are ongoing and incremental. So going from say 11.48 to 12.00 might not be terribly overwhelming (by design). Going from 11.48 to 12.48 is obviously a much bigger jump (and a one-time jump that quite a few prefer as a model.)

Lastly, a lot of the reasons for updating are not “sexy”. Maintaining a very high level of security, as the world changes, happens mostly under the hood. Maintaining compatibility with other systems, especially things like email and FTP are also unsexy, but happen on a fairly regular basis.

But I appreciate your understanding that to produce quality costs money, and yes, we charge for what we make. And while it’s not “cheap” - I also would suggest that it is “high value”.

Cheers
Bruce

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88

And I think history proves that people are willing to keep paying, so long as the product is actively been worked on. Like you say, it’s not all about the “sexy” aspect (new features and so forth), but security, bug fixes, compatibility with changes in the OS and so on.

As you’ve also alluded to, I think the idea of having to include some new “wow” feature to every major release is a flawed one, because you’re going to hold stuff back that could be in the hands of customers sooner, simply because you want to have something to announce for the next major release. No matter whether you do a 12 month subscription (what I think SV should be doing with Clarion) or do what you do and just bump the major version number when you think it’s fair to do so, at the end of the day the customer always has the opportunity to look back over whatever the period was, and ask themselves the question, “Do I believe I got value for money, and therefore is it worth renewing my subscription?”

In a world where technology doesn’t stand still for a moment, you’d have to be crazy to purposely slow down development (due to lack of funds) simply because you don’t want to change subscription models. Or maybe I’m the crazy one :crazy_face:

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Hello Bruce,

Probably Anton was referring to it’s all up to the software creator to define prices, and if upgrades with or without costs are ‘fair’ or not.

Only you, or Robert Zaunere can decide what is ‘fair’.

If Bill Gates was ‘fair’ :slight_smile: or Ellison, then they would not be billionairs.

Even if you sell your licences for 1 million dollar, or for 5 dollar, and upgrade only 1 button.
That’s entirely up to you. :slight_smile:

It’s all a matter of demands and ownership.

Maybe Robert Zaunere lost someone dear to him, and spent all his money on hospitals to keep someone alive. Yes, maybe with Clarion.net money.

He get’s our blessing, it’s his money and not from Clarion Bolsheviks :slight_smile:

He was smart to buy it, and he has no obligation or ethics to us the community, neither you should have any obligation. :slight_smile: your life, your company. We are just happy for you.

That Anton was pointing out probably.

Fact is, people love NetTalk, and indeed with good reasons :slight_smile:

And people love Clarion, even the current version, because with WinApi etc the possibilities are unlimited.

We must admit, that TUFO structure question, is worth Gold for us the community. And asking Robert for FileDriver sources, opens for us the way to move Clarion into the future, with or without SV indeed.

Thanks for asking him these most essential questions. (peek into the sources)

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David Cash,

Most probably you should tunnel all your energy into creating a product, even with a criple Clarion version… what gives you a great money flow of income.

Factually you can program anything what you like with Clarion, for the simple reason you can use GDI and all other WinApi’s.

I am sure Robert used the clarion.net money wisely (paying hospital bills) its not your company, so deal with it

Just be happy in life.

Im sure Robert did not intent to rip everyone.

Just business gone wrong due personal issues.

May he?

He is not a wellfare governmental institute for poor old communist man after all.

Just be happy and get rich

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Lol. That’s like saying that if you rob somebody, but use the money for a good purpose, it’s all OK. You can try to rationalize it however you like, but it doesn’t change the facts.

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Then i might not understand what happened.

Did you pay and never received?

Or are you just not satisfied with the delivered product?

If you never received but paid, then you are correct.

But if its not towards your ultimate goal of satisfaction, then you are far from near being correct.

But thus, you paid 2k for Clarion.net but never received it by mail? You never could work with it?

Did SV legally by law something wrong?

I will buy your license if you like

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The product delivered was not as advertised. There are consumer laws regarding products needing to be “fit for purpose”, and Clarion.Net was not. You don’t have to take my word for it, but look at what others have to say regarding it. Or maybe privately ask someone you trust whether what I’m stating is fair, or otherwise.

As we’ve deviated far enough from the topic and nothing can be gained by discussing a failed product, I suggest we just leave it here.

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Ah, as such. That’s indeed not how it should be.
On the other hand good for us all he did not went bankrupt.

To sue a large company due malicious intent, okey.

But Robert is just a mini small company and he took a risk. Without bad intent.

I don’t mind at all buying a half finished product.

But i recognize your frustrations.

For how much money you would sell clarion.net to me?

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Well, that could be your experience based on… what? My wife is working with Webdev in a big project for a company that made engines for Airbus 400 and so far, so good. They are even using Hyperfile SQL (not the best idea from my point of view) but they are dozens of concurrent users every day.
I agree with you that not always the new features are ready and I use to wait a version for using it. I also admit that some features (especially with Windev Mobile) have problems, mainly because Android versions but, as I said, the tool is useful.
Currently I’m supporting a payroll system in Windev for a big company of Switzerland so, again, what’s your experience with Wx?

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I think Robert Zaunere and Diego are preparing a massive super release of Clarion.net based upon .NET Core

They will get instantly multi millionair if they would.

Something is cooking :wink: :slight_smile:

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While I appreciate the offer, I don’t think I could any good conscience sell something that is half-baked and, as far as I’m aware, effectively cancelled.

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Based on years (WxDev versions 8 through 16 or something along those lines) of having to report bugs to the authors, which was an exercise in frustration in and of itself, as it would often take literally weeks of back and forth e-mails before they would admit there was a problem, and then again weeks for a fixed version to be provided. Most of the bugs were clearly the result of laziness, where they thought that half implementing something would be good enough because 90% of users wouldn’t come across the bug. Surprisingly I found Hyperfile generally OK. I probably wouldn’t trust it on something mission critical, but I don’t think it ever failed me.

WinDev was far better than WebDev and WinDev Mobile, which were beyond horrible. The t-shirts and pencils were the best part of the entire package!

At the end of the day, if it works for you, then more power to you. Personally it’s not really something I’d wish on my worst enemy :grimacing:

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I’m sorry to hear about your bad experience. It works for us and this has been since version 11. Of course there are issues and I must admit that report a bug to PCSoft is almost impossible but, at the end of the day, I can use it. Clarion has a much better community and that’s the main reason is still alive. It’s as you says, I can use different tools, depending on what I have to do.

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Absolutely agree, and also as you say different tools for different purposes. The best tool is the one that gets the job done!

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Or a large hammer, I’ve been told they are the tool for any job :smiley:

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Haha yes. Something I’m sure every programmer has been tempted to use on more than one occasion :laughing:

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I stopped using the WinX suite for a couple of reasons. I could not export the app, into a flat file that I could then bulk update and edit. In clarion we have the TXA and TXD file and I wrote this as an example.
https://www.icetips.com/par2downloads/TXAconvert.zip
Download Clarion Templates and Tools from Icetips Alta LLC
The ability to bulk update an app or series of (dll) apps to make system wide changes is important for me as I can edit the templates using these files. I couldnt do that in WinX.

They also stopped me from using my email address [email protected] as I was infringing their copyright. I gave a unique email address to every entity I interacted with, to keep track of those ignoring marketing/spam preferences and to highlight who had been hacked or given out my details to other companies. I caught a FTSE stock market listed company ignoring marketing preferences.
I also found the WinX apps to be unstable, one of the main annoyances was the MDI frame always ended up smaller than you would expect and it was clunky so I never bothered any more with it.

I think native language apps are best for the platforms, instead of a framework where I have no control over it, so I’ve been working on a language translator that will convert clarion code into other languages and vice versa for different platforms, but its a big job and its far from complete.

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I do supplements, what some might call nootropics, so I do choline bitratrate as this maintains the connections between neurons.
Neuroprotective Actions of Dietary Choline - PMC (nih.gov)
So if you know of women getting baby brain during pregnancy, or cancer brain or covid brain aka a brain fog, then you dont have enough choline in your diet. Choline is also used in the alveoli to lower the gas pressure to facilitate the exchange of gases when we breath and its used in the cell membrane wall. Why CO2 is important is that at 1000ppm it deactivates the immune system in the lungs Effects of elevated CO2 levels on lung immune response to organic dust and lipopolysaccharide - PMC (nih.gov) but at 5000ppm it sends the immune system in the lungs over the top, so its super efficient, so breathing into a paper bag could be better than asthma inhalers for some or aerobic exercise, a typical bedroom will see CO2 levels rise when we sleep unless there is sufficient ventilation, which is why tent camping can be refreshing, but when CO2 levels rise in the blood it stimulates the body upto 30% blood saturation and beyond that it becomes like a noble gas and can kill. Doing a table spoon of sodium bicarbonate gives you an athletic boost for about an hour which can improve exercise performance.

I do gram amounts of riboflavin aka Vitamin B2 for headaches and keeping inflammation down as its not just restricted to migraines but good for arthritis as well,
Supplementation with Riboflavin (Vitamin B2) for Migraine Prophylaxis in Adults and Children: A Review - PubMed (nih.gov)

I do gram amounts of tryptophan at night as it I can drop off to sleep within minutes, melatonin is 4x more potent that vit C and increases the release of stem cells into the body. This will make you want to eat carbs though and less meat because there are some competing amino acids which block the tryptophan from getting into the brain and then being stored in the spinal fluid. If we eat too much meat we can depress ourselves with protein overload.

I’ve been experimenting with manganese recently, as I found it increases SOD2 aka MnSOD in the mitochondria (cell power plant) which helps the cell function better, the risk with manganese is Parkinson’s but this is mainly from inhalation, also good for diabetes management, and there is such a thing as “diet induced obesity” which seems to be linked to a deficiency in manganese when dieting.
and Glycine which is an excellent sugar replacement, this stuff will have you laughing your head off and it increases life span The Anti-Aging and Longevity Benefits of Glycine (novoslabs.com)

Calcium amplifies the catecholamines (adrenaline, noradrenaline and dopamine), drinking Tea is like drinking liquid cocaine, cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, so I dont need to sniff anything, but I do drinkns lots of tea in hard water. I could fly into this place and get some leaves for free! Coca leaf tea for preventing altitude sickness in Cusco Peru! (bestofperutravel.com) or I could add tyrosine into my diet, the white crystals seen on mature cheddar cheese.

I’ve messed around with my supplements for sure, but Ive slowly been getting a handle on what works and what doesnt work because even scientific studies dont look at everything. I’ve probably read over 10 thousand studies since google scholar came out in 2005 and its clear the medical experts dont appear to be so expert!

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Lol

I tell you the secret of longlivity:

“Not using your body as a testlab”

Simply lots of water, vit c, apple cider… and no meat from birds or land animals.

But mostly: not having to make your body on getting used to new food

The people who are centarians, are all very stable and constant in what they eat.

This seems to be the trick, not waring your organs out of tests and lab peaks. Too much impact.

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So yes and no, 15mins in a 80C sauna sweats more toxins that your kidneys can process in a 24hr period so sweating is important, even if its a hot bath that makes you sweat for 5-10mins after getting out of the bath, same goes for exercise, stuff that makes you sweat is good.

Sure studies have shown that calorie restriction increases life span, and vegan diets outlive meat diets, but I’m not doing any chemical which is not found in food, so I do tryptophan on its own because it gets blocked by other amino acids.
I dont do vitamin K2-mk4 until I go to bed as this directs the stimulating calcium in the bloodstream to the bones, same with manganese, copper I would do in the morning as its a stimulant, and if it makes you nauseous, that could be interleukin-2 a chemo drug made in the body which could indicate you might have cancer.

The older generation grew up on organic food and a slower pace of life, not this chemical driven stuff you get in the supermarkets today and an always on society. Some drugs switch on or off receptors, but has the body evolved enough to handle these man made drugs which would not normally be found in the diet?

I admit I dont get enough exercise though.